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	<title>Comments on: Richard Dawkins and the Purpose of Purpose</title>
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	<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2009/03/09/richard-dawkins-and-the-purpose-of-purpose/</link>
	<description>Wesley R. Elsberry&#039;s personal weblog, talking about falconry, science, antievolution, computation, and the broken body he lives in.</description>
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		<title>By: Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2009/03/09/richard-dawkins-and-the-purpose-of-purpose/comment-page-1/#comment-312211</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 02:06:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=1291#comment-312211</guid>
		<description>But asking ‘why’ living organisms are seems to often have been done in the past.

As well it should be. The lecture misses a fundamental point - why do organisms bother to evolve? The answer is, they evolve in order to survive. But why is survival an aim? Why bother surviving? Why did life evolve from being blue-green algae to humans over 4.5 billion years? Ultimately there is no &#039;real utility&#039; in surviving, because we all die eventually. Even if it is just selfish genes doing what they do best, why do they do it? My answer is  - human life is an intrinsic good, it is good in its own right, and this is why it evolved. It is the purpose towards which life has evolved for 4 billion years, or so.

What is the alternative view? If there really is no such purpose, then life &#039;just happened&#039; to evolve, culminating in human form. But this is not any kind of explanation, or theory - it is the absence of one.

SO  - I think it is perfectly legitimate to say &#039;we are not concerned with purpose, science doesn&#039;t deal with ultimate ends&#039;. However it is perfectly meaningless to say &#039;there is no purpose, life evolves without a purpose&#039;. One would only say this because one thinks the statement that life has a purpose is a religious statement, and one hates religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But asking ‘why’ living organisms are seems to often have been done in the past.</p>
<p>As well it should be. The lecture misses a fundamental point &#8211; why do organisms bother to evolve? The answer is, they evolve in order to survive. But why is survival an aim? Why bother surviving? Why did life evolve from being blue-green algae to humans over 4.5 billion years? Ultimately there is no &#8216;real utility&#8217; in surviving, because we all die eventually. Even if it is just selfish genes doing what they do best, why do they do it? My answer is  &#8211; human life is an intrinsic good, it is good in its own right, and this is why it evolved. It is the purpose towards which life has evolved for 4 billion years, or so.</p>
<p>What is the alternative view? If there really is no such purpose, then life &#8216;just happened&#8217; to evolve, culminating in human form. But this is not any kind of explanation, or theory &#8211; it is the absence of one.</p>
<p>SO  &#8211; I think it is perfectly legitimate to say &#8216;we are not concerned with purpose, science doesn&#8217;t deal with ultimate ends&#8217;. However it is perfectly meaningless to say &#8216;there is no purpose, life evolves without a purpose&#8217;. One would only say this because one thinks the statement that life has a purpose is a religious statement, and one hates religion.</p>
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		<title>By: Austringer</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2009/03/09/richard-dawkins-and-the-purpose-of-purpose/comment-page-1/#comment-312206</link>
		<dc:creator>Austringer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Apr 2009 22:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=1291#comment-312206</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s pretty much my complete set of notes above. If you don&#039;t see it there, it didn&#039;t strike me as something I needed to get down while the talk went on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s pretty much my complete set of notes above. If you don&#8217;t see it there, it didn&#8217;t strike me as something I needed to get down while the talk went on.</p>
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		<title>By: Owen</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2009/03/09/richard-dawkins-and-the-purpose-of-purpose/comment-page-1/#comment-312205</link>
		<dc:creator>Owen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Apr 2009 13:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=1291#comment-312205</guid>
		<description>Does dawkins ever talk about what he see&#039;s as his purpose (neo-purpose)? (please don&#039;t just say look at his foundation website)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does dawkins ever talk about what he see&#8217;s as his purpose (neo-purpose)? (please don&#8217;t just say look at his foundation website)</p>
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		<title>By: Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2009/03/09/richard-dawkins-and-the-purpose-of-purpose/comment-page-1/#comment-312190</link>
		<dc:creator>Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 22:52:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=1291#comment-312190</guid>
		<description>Sorry for the typos. Barnhart 
 positive naturalist
 Also Eugenie C.Scott errs in her  book against creationism for castigating scientists for noting no cosmic purpose as she sees that as   philosophical rather than scientific. Nay, as Paul Draper in an email to me, notes, she doesn&#039;t fathom the demarcation problem of where science starts and ends; also, it was Simpson and Mayr who led the rebellion against the notion of orthogenesis which she would allow apparently. The article in Wikipedia belies her bald assertion in that it notes that orthogenesis is no longer a viable term. She would endorse, in effect, Miller&#039;s and Giberson&#039;s silly attempts to see orthogenesis in the form of convergence as Jerry Coyne shows up in &#039;Seeing and Believing &quot;@ the New Republic. Dawkins rightly contemns the accommodationists to the oxymoronic theistic evolutionism!
  From the side of religion, she can aver that there is no conflict but not from the side of science! We need to oppose such shenanigans. As Coyne notes, the fight is  really between faith and secular reason,not merely creationism and science.
   Also Amiel Rossow @ Talk  Reason pans Miller&#039;s reintroduction of the designer after he demolishes ID. Coyne notees how Miller finds God in quantum processes: I say that is the god of the invisible!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for the typos. Barnhart<br />
 positive naturalist<br />
 Also Eugenie C.Scott errs in her  book against creationism for castigating scientists for noting no cosmic purpose as she sees that as   philosophical rather than scientific. Nay, as Paul Draper in an email to me, notes, she doesn&#8217;t fathom the demarcation problem of where science starts and ends; also, it was Simpson and Mayr who led the rebellion against the notion of orthogenesis which she would allow apparently. The article in Wikipedia belies her bald assertion in that it notes that orthogenesis is no longer a viable term. She would endorse, in effect, Miller&#8217;s and Giberson&#8217;s silly attempts to see orthogenesis in the form of convergence as Jerry Coyne shows up in &#8216;Seeing and Believing &#8220;@ the New Republic. Dawkins rightly contemns the accommodationists to the oxymoronic theistic evolutionism!<br />
  From the side of religion, she can aver that there is no conflict but not from the side of science! We need to oppose such shenanigans. As Coyne notes, the fight is  really between faith and secular reason,not merely creationism and science.<br />
   Also Amiel Rossow @ Talk  Reason pans Miller&#8217;s reintroduction of the designer after he demolishes ID. Coyne notees how Miller finds God in quantum processes: I say that is the god of the invisible!</p>
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		<title>By: Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2009/03/09/richard-dawkins-and-the-purpose-of-purpose/comment-page-1/#comment-312189</link>
		<dc:creator>Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 22:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=1291#comment-312189</guid>
		<description>I have been using the term atelic in the atelic argument that, since the weight of    evidence shows no cosmic teleology, therefore no need to  postulate God as the designer as we see patterns, not designs anyway.Now I&#039;ll use the postivie term teleonomic as I use the positive terms naturalilst and rationalist as opposed to atheist[ and naturalism and rationalism  also oppose the paranormal.] A without telic -teleology
   I also use the term dysteological- for the imperfections- for Hume&#039;s negative argument against  the teleological ones. Also we should require theists to respond to why the imperfections without answering the problem of evil!
    Logic is the bane of theists. Religion is mythinformation. Reason saves, not that dead , fanatic, Galilean cult leader!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been using the term atelic in the atelic argument that, since the weight of    evidence shows no cosmic teleology, therefore no need to  postulate God as the designer as we see patterns, not designs anyway.Now I&#8217;ll use the postivie term teleonomic as I use the positive terms naturalilst and rationalist as opposed to atheist[ and naturalism and rationalism  also oppose the paranormal.] A without telic -teleology<br />
   I also use the term dysteological- for the imperfections- for Hume&#8217;s negative argument against  the teleological ones. Also we should require theists to respond to why the imperfections without answering the problem of evil!<br />
    Logic is the bane of theists. Religion is mythinformation. Reason saves, not that dead , fanatic, Galilean cult leader!</p>
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		<title>By: Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2009/03/09/richard-dawkins-and-the-purpose-of-purpose/comment-page-1/#comment-312188</link>
		<dc:creator>Morgan-LynnGriggs Lamberth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 20:03:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=1291#comment-312188</guid>
		<description>I  am spreading the evangel -glad tidings of humanism, naturalism, rationalism  and skepticism. I belonged to the defunct group Evangelicals for Agnosticism at its end.
 We have the right evangel in that we embrace reality rather than superstitions in handling  the world.
 Google naturalistgriggsy, rationalist griggsy, skeptic griggsy, griggs1947, sceptique griggsy and esceptico griggsy around the globe in different languages to see how I spread our evangel around the globe. Also I have blogs @ Google and WordPress under griggs1947.
 Oh, how much misery has Graham contributed to humanity? I&#039;d like to see someone expose his stupidity. I know that Joseph Barnhardt has out &quot;The Billy Graham Religion.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I  am spreading the evangel -glad tidings of humanism, naturalism, rationalism  and skepticism. I belonged to the defunct group Evangelicals for Agnosticism at its end.<br />
 We have the right evangel in that we embrace reality rather than superstitions in handling  the world.<br />
 Google naturalistgriggsy, rationalist griggsy, skeptic griggsy, griggs1947, sceptique griggsy and esceptico griggsy around the globe in different languages to see how I spread our evangel around the globe. Also I have blogs @ Google and WordPress under griggs1947.<br />
 Oh, how much misery has Graham contributed to humanity? I&#8217;d like to see someone expose his stupidity. I know that Joseph Barnhardt has out &#8220;The Billy Graham Religion.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Austringer</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2009/03/09/richard-dawkins-and-the-purpose-of-purpose/comment-page-1/#comment-312187</link>
		<dc:creator>Austringer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 19:22:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Dyer is about my size, but I&#039;m standing down some steps and Dyer is a few feet closer to me than Dawkins for that photo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dyer is about my size, but I&#8217;m standing down some steps and Dyer is a few feet closer to me than Dawkins for that photo.</p>
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		<title>By: latsot</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2009/03/09/richard-dawkins-and-the-purpose-of-purpose/comment-page-1/#comment-312186</link>
		<dc:creator>latsot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 15:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=1291#comment-312186</guid>
		<description>From what I can tell from the last photograph, Dyer appears to be a fairy-tale giant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From what I can tell from the last photograph, Dyer appears to be a fairy-tale giant.</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Schafersman</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2009/03/09/richard-dawkins-and-the-purpose-of-purpose/comment-page-1/#comment-312185</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Schafersman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 02:57:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=1291#comment-312185</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the excellent summary, Wes.

I agree with Wesley that Dawkins answered the &quot;evangelical atheist&quot; question as if he understood it to be &quot;fundamentalist atheist.&quot; Dawkins is of course not the latter, since new evidence (e.g, of god, of supernaturalism) would change his views; he is not dogmatic. But Dawkins and the other New Atheists frankly do not have a good understanding of the diversity of religious belief. They tend to generalize too much and lump religionists together. Not all Evangelical Christians are Biblical Literalists and Inerrantists, Religious Fundamentalists, and Social Conservatives. Some evangelicals (obviously not a majority) are liberal to moderate and do not read the Bible literally. They DO accept Christian doctrine, but are not necessarily dogmatic or fundamentalist. It is likely that Dawkins does not know that Christian Fundamentalists took to calling themselves Evangelicals since the term &quot;Fundamentalist&quot; has correctly earned a nasty stigma. That&#039;s why Fundamentalists like to call themselves &quot;Conservative&quot; when they are in truth quite radical in the right-half of the political spectrum, i.e. they are Fascists.

My main complaint about this talk is the coining of new terms. Dawkins&#039; &quot;archi-purpose&quot; and &quot;neo-purpose&quot; are incredibly awkward and could be better stated as simply &quot;apparent purpose&quot; and &quot;intentional purpose.&quot; In fact, technical terms for these two concepts have long existed in science and Dawkins should have used them: teleology and teleonomy. Intentional, goal-oriented purposeful behavior is teleological. Ernst Mayr long ago defined the term to describe the apparent but non-teleological purposefulness and goal-directedness in nature: teleonomy. The apparent design of the biological world is teleonomic, not teleological, because it results from a natural and mechanistic modifications (by mutation, recombination, and natural selection) to a program of coded information (DNA). There is even a webpage devoted to this term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleonomy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the excellent summary, Wes.</p>
<p>I agree with Wesley that Dawkins answered the &#8220;evangelical atheist&#8221; question as if he understood it to be &#8220;fundamentalist atheist.&#8221; Dawkins is of course not the latter, since new evidence (e.g, of god, of supernaturalism) would change his views; he is not dogmatic. But Dawkins and the other New Atheists frankly do not have a good understanding of the diversity of religious belief. They tend to generalize too much and lump religionists together. Not all Evangelical Christians are Biblical Literalists and Inerrantists, Religious Fundamentalists, and Social Conservatives. Some evangelicals (obviously not a majority) are liberal to moderate and do not read the Bible literally. They DO accept Christian doctrine, but are not necessarily dogmatic or fundamentalist. It is likely that Dawkins does not know that Christian Fundamentalists took to calling themselves Evangelicals since the term &#8220;Fundamentalist&#8221; has correctly earned a nasty stigma. That&#8217;s why Fundamentalists like to call themselves &#8220;Conservative&#8221; when they are in truth quite radical in the right-half of the political spectrum, i.e. they are Fascists.</p>
<p>My main complaint about this talk is the coining of new terms. Dawkins&#8217; &#8220;archi-purpose&#8221; and &#8220;neo-purpose&#8221; are incredibly awkward and could be better stated as simply &#8220;apparent purpose&#8221; and &#8220;intentional purpose.&#8221; In fact, technical terms for these two concepts have long existed in science and Dawkins should have used them: teleology and teleonomy. Intentional, goal-oriented purposeful behavior is teleological. Ernst Mayr long ago defined the term to describe the apparent but non-teleological purposefulness and goal-directedness in nature: teleonomy. The apparent design of the biological world is teleonomic, not teleological, because it results from a natural and mechanistic modifications (by mutation, recombination, and natural selection) to a program of coded information (DNA). There is even a webpage devoted to this term: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleonomy" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleonomy</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jerry Billings</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2009/03/09/richard-dawkins-and-the-purpose-of-purpose/comment-page-1/#comment-312183</link>
		<dc:creator>Jerry Billings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Mar 2009 20:48:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=1291#comment-312183</guid>
		<description>While I can imagine any number of miracles that would falsify my opinion that there are neiter a god nor gods, I cannot imagine a single positive piece of evidence that the gods do not exist. What sort of a miracle could a non-existant god present?My strong Atheistic conviction depends upon the impossibility of a supernatural and the addition of naturalistic explanations by the sciences of the questions of life. I do not recognize the god-of-the-gaps as any explanation at all. The explanation of a miracle by invoking a greater miracle is just plain goofy and should be pointed out to every fundie who trys to adopt it.
   If there is a single issue in Atheism that deserves criticism it is the shameful cowardness of so many Atheists who refuse to open their self imposed closet door, to come out, to be proud of their knowledge and to be free from superstition.
   Thank you Professor Dawkins. I apologise for the nay sayers and nit pickers who are so bloody negative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I can imagine any number of miracles that would falsify my opinion that there are neiter a god nor gods, I cannot imagine a single positive piece of evidence that the gods do not exist. What sort of a miracle could a non-existant god present?My strong Atheistic conviction depends upon the impossibility of a supernatural and the addition of naturalistic explanations by the sciences of the questions of life. I do not recognize the god-of-the-gaps as any explanation at all. The explanation of a miracle by invoking a greater miracle is just plain goofy and should be pointed out to every fundie who trys to adopt it.<br />
   If there is a single issue in Atheism that deserves criticism it is the shameful cowardness of so many Atheists who refuse to open their self imposed closet door, to come out, to be proud of their knowledge and to be free from superstition.<br />
   Thank you Professor Dawkins. I apologise for the nay sayers and nit pickers who are so bloody negative.</p>
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