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	<title>Comments on: The Transitional Fossil Existence Challenge (2005/02/24)</title>
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	<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2005/02/24/the-transitional-fossil-existence-challenge-20050224/</link>
	<description>Wesley R. Elsberry&#039;s personal weblog, talking about falconry, science, antievolution, computation, and the broken body he lives in.</description>
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		<title>By: OD</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2005/02/24/the-transitional-fossil-existence-challenge-20050224/comment-page-1/#comment-312721</link>
		<dc:creator>OD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 11:18:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=84#comment-312721</guid>
		<description>Yes that does appear to be the main argument. However one person does appear to have at least taken on the challenge with regard to the tetrapod transition. Unfortunately I have been banned from the site now so I can no longer reply to their attempts at the challenge... oh well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes that does appear to be the main argument. However one person does appear to have at least taken on the challenge with regard to the tetrapod transition. Unfortunately I have been banned from the site now so I can no longer reply to their attempts at the challenge&#8230; oh well.</p>
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		<title>By: Austringer</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2005/02/24/the-transitional-fossil-existence-challenge-20050224/comment-page-1/#comment-312716</link>
		<dc:creator>Austringer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 11:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=84#comment-312716</guid>
		<description>OD,

I had a look at the linked page. All I saw there was a pretty weak application of NERI (F) (see the full list of NERIs above). Did I miss something?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OD,</p>
<p>I had a look at the linked page. All I saw there was a pretty weak application of NERI (F) (see the full list of NERIs above). Did I miss something?</p>
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		<title>By: OD</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2005/02/24/the-transitional-fossil-existence-challenge-20050224/comment-page-1/#comment-312715</link>
		<dc:creator>OD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 00:19:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=84#comment-312715</guid>
		<description>Somebody is willing to take on your Transitional Fossil Existence Challenge.

http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3209</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Somebody is willing to take on your Transitional Fossil Existence Challenge.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3209" rel="nofollow">http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3209</a></p>
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		<title>By: Austringer</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2005/02/24/the-transitional-fossil-existence-challenge-20050224/comment-page-1/#comment-15001</link>
		<dc:creator>Austringer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 16:49:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=84#comment-15001</guid>
		<description>So, Matt, tell me why the Pearson et al. paper cited in the TFEC does NOT provide a description of a transitional fossil sequence? So far, no &quot;skeptic&quot; (a misapplied label if ever there was one) has managed to say why not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, Matt, tell me why the Pearson et al. paper cited in the TFEC does NOT provide a description of a transitional fossil sequence? So far, no &#8220;skeptic&#8221; (a misapplied label if ever there was one) has managed to say why not.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt G</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2005/02/24/the-transitional-fossil-existence-challenge-20050224/comment-page-1/#comment-14971</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2005 04:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=84#comment-14971</guid>
		<description>Once I trudged through the pretentious rhetoric and elaborate &#039;methodology&#039;, I could only conclude that the TFEC is fanciful way of avoiding the issue and demanding that the skeptic justify his own skepticism.

Unfortunately, the author seems to focus on those individuals who made the mistake of digging their own grave by needlessly asserting that transitionals dont exist.
While this may be true, the skeptic merely must demand principles of sound logic.
The evolutionist makes the claim that transitional fossils exist.
He who makes a positive assertion bears the burden of proof.

Rather than claim transitional fossils dont exist, the skeptic merely has to demand that the evolutionist provide examples of these transitional fossils and explain why they are seen as some transition rather than the imaginative interpretation of fossils of different TYPES of the same KIND of animals.

Of course, the discussion would inevitably lead into vestigial organs, irreducible complexity, etc...but the skeptic is within his rights to demand the evolutionists bear the burden of proof that comes with the assertion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once I trudged through the pretentious rhetoric and elaborate &#8216;methodology&#8217;, I could only conclude that the TFEC is fanciful way of avoiding the issue and demanding that the skeptic justify his own skepticism.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the author seems to focus on those individuals who made the mistake of digging their own grave by needlessly asserting that transitionals dont exist.<br />
While this may be true, the skeptic merely must demand principles of sound logic.<br />
The evolutionist makes the claim that transitional fossils exist.<br />
He who makes a positive assertion bears the burden of proof.</p>
<p>Rather than claim transitional fossils dont exist, the skeptic merely has to demand that the evolutionist provide examples of these transitional fossils and explain why they are seen as some transition rather than the imaginative interpretation of fossils of different TYPES of the same KIND of animals.</p>
<p>Of course, the discussion would inevitably lead into vestigial organs, irreducible complexity, etc&#8230;but the skeptic is within his rights to demand the evolutionists bear the burden of proof that comes with the assertion.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2005/02/24/the-transitional-fossil-existence-challenge-20050224/comment-page-1/#comment-6746</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=84#comment-6746</guid>
		<description>Oh and a final note about Archaeopteryx - an older misquotation is that either Gould or Eldredge claimed Archie was not a &quot;transitional fossil&quot; and was just a mosaic. This utterly misunderstands what Gould and Eldredge are arguing, that evolution progresses by species hops, and that evolution is through step-like changes in characteristics, often with different rates of change, so an intermediate form is a mosaic of old and new characters, not some sort of morphed hybrid of the old and new, as supposedly required by &quot;gradualistic evolution&quot;. This was the &quot;strawman&quot; version of conventional palaeontological opinion that Gould and Eldredge set themselves apart from by positing punctuated equilibrium, but it&#039;s a concept that few, if any, workers in the field really held to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh and a final note about Archaeopteryx &#8211; an older misquotation is that either Gould or Eldredge claimed Archie was not a &#8220;transitional fossil&#8221; and was just a mosaic. This utterly misunderstands what Gould and Eldredge are arguing, that evolution progresses by species hops, and that evolution is through step-like changes in characteristics, often with different rates of change, so an intermediate form is a mosaic of old and new characters, not some sort of morphed hybrid of the old and new, as supposedly required by &#8220;gradualistic evolution&#8221;. This was the &#8220;strawman&#8221; version of conventional palaeontological opinion that Gould and Eldredge set themselves apart from by positing punctuated equilibrium, but it&#8217;s a concept that few, if any, workers in the field really held to.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2005/02/24/the-transitional-fossil-existence-challenge-20050224/comment-page-1/#comment-6745</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Jun 2005 12:05:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=84#comment-6745</guid>
		<description>A couple of points from earlier in the comments - horse lineage and Archaeopteryx supposedly debunked. Typical Creationist misunderstanding of evolutionary biology&#039;s internal arguments. (i)Creationists point to the bushy tree that is all the fossil horse species and claim that it somehow refutes the evident progression from Hyracotherium to Equus. It doesn&#039;t because they confuse the difference between direct lineages and related lineages. 

In strict logical &amp; probabilistic terms a fossil can&#039;t be proven to be the direct ancestor of any living species, but this goes for any old bones being ancestral to any living individual today that you don&#039;t have a documented pedigree for. What fossil lineages represent are forms intermediate between one suite of characteristics and another, as required by neo-Darwinian evolution. Organisms with feature changes between two species states must themselves be viable, which is what fossil lines demonstrate. Thus we have the lineage required to link &quot;reptiles&quot; and &quot;mammals&quot; - the mammal-like reptiles are perfectly intermediate showing a clear transition, for example, from multiple bone structures in the lower jaw to a single bone, the maxilla. Yet as a group they are as bushy as fossil horses with many extinct lineages with no living descendents.
(ii)Archaeopteryx is usually claimed to be debunked because either it&#039;s a fake, or else it&#039;s a modern bird. The Hoyle-Wickramasinghe-Spetner fake fantasy was disproven years ago by the exemplar fossil&#039;s owner, the British Museum, but that&#039;s never stopped Creationists from quoting it as fact. The modern bird nonsense is a misreading of claims by ornithologists that Archaeopteryx is more bird and less reptile. This is an out-dated opinion and was never used by the researchers as a claim against evolution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple of points from earlier in the comments &#8211; horse lineage and Archaeopteryx supposedly debunked. Typical Creationist misunderstanding of evolutionary biology&#8217;s internal arguments. (i)Creationists point to the bushy tree that is all the fossil horse species and claim that it somehow refutes the evident progression from Hyracotherium to Equus. It doesn&#8217;t because they confuse the difference between direct lineages and related lineages. </p>
<p>In strict logical &amp; probabilistic terms a fossil can&#8217;t be proven to be the direct ancestor of any living species, but this goes for any old bones being ancestral to any living individual today that you don&#8217;t have a documented pedigree for. What fossil lineages represent are forms intermediate between one suite of characteristics and another, as required by neo-Darwinian evolution. Organisms with feature changes between two species states must themselves be viable, which is what fossil lines demonstrate. Thus we have the lineage required to link &#8220;reptiles&#8221; and &#8220;mammals&#8221; &#8211; the mammal-like reptiles are perfectly intermediate showing a clear transition, for example, from multiple bone structures in the lower jaw to a single bone, the maxilla. Yet as a group they are as bushy as fossil horses with many extinct lineages with no living descendents.<br />
(ii)Archaeopteryx is usually claimed to be debunked because either it&#8217;s a fake, or else it&#8217;s a modern bird. The Hoyle-Wickramasinghe-Spetner fake fantasy was disproven years ago by the exemplar fossil&#8217;s owner, the British Museum, but that&#8217;s never stopped Creationists from quoting it as fact. The modern bird nonsense is a misreading of claims by ornithologists that Archaeopteryx is more bird and less reptile. This is an out-dated opinion and was never used by the researchers as a claim against evolution.</p>
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		<title>By: Curtis Anderson</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2005/02/24/the-transitional-fossil-existence-challenge-20050224/comment-page-1/#comment-5952</link>
		<dc:creator>Curtis Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2005 19:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=84#comment-5952</guid>
		<description>I have invited Pastor Merrill Olson to take your challenge. Here is his quote from a LTTE in our local paper. 
&quot;Letâ€™s state something clear about the fossil record. If it took millions of years for animals to evolve, surely intermediates should be found. Surely, one would be able to find thousands of fossils of the intermediate. But, the plain fact is: none have ever been found.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have invited Pastor Merrill Olson to take your challenge. Here is his quote from a LTTE in our local paper.<br />
&#8220;Letâ€™s state something clear about the fossil record. If it took millions of years for animals to evolve, surely intermediates should be found. Surely, one would be able to find thousands of fossils of the intermediate. But, the plain fact is: none have ever been found.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Austringer</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2005/02/24/the-transitional-fossil-existence-challenge-20050224/comment-page-1/#comment-3732</link>
		<dc:creator>Austringer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Mar 2005 05:02:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=84#comment-3732</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
And as I pointed out before, Darwin did not say that we should expect to find an â€œinfinitudeâ€ of intermediate forms.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is still true, despite &quot;mynym&quot;&#039;s long-winded misunderstanding of what I said.

Again, &quot;mynym&quot; fails to address the evidence, preferring the comfort of Non-Evidentiary Response Items. I can understand the need the ideologically precommitted feel for hand-waving away the evidence, but I don&#039;t have to concur with them. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
And as I pointed out before, Darwin did not say that we should expect to find an â€œinfinitudeâ€ of intermediate forms.
</p></blockquote>
<p>This is still true, despite &#8220;mynym&#8221;&#8216;s long-winded misunderstanding of what I said.</p>
<p>Again, &#8220;mynym&#8221; fails to address the evidence, preferring the comfort of Non-Evidentiary Response Items. I can understand the need the ideologically precommitted feel for hand-waving away the evidence, but I don&#8217;t have to concur with them.</p>
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		<title>By: mynym</title>
		<link>http://austringer.net/wp/index.php/2005/02/24/the-transitional-fossil-existence-challenge-20050224/comment-page-1/#comment-3728</link>
		<dc:creator>mynym</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Mar 2005 02:22:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://austringer.net/wp/?p=84#comment-3728</guid>
		<description>Darwin did say that there would have to be an infinitude of intermediaries, then he tries to make excuses as to why they were not found:
&quot;On this doctrine of the extermination of an infinitude of connecting links, between the living and extinct inhabitants of the world, and at each successive period between the extinct and still older species, why is not every geological formation charged with such links? Why does not every collection of fossil remains afford plain evidence of the gradation and mutation of the forms of life? Although geological research has undoubtedly revealed the former existence of many links, bringing numerous forms of life much closer together, it does not yield the infinitely many fine gradations between past and present species required on the theory, and this is the most obvious of the many objections which may be urged against it. Why, again, do whole groups of allied species appear, though this appearance is often false, to have come in suddenly on the successive geological stages?

I can answer these questions and objections only on the supposition that the geological record is...imperfect...&quot;

There is the Darwinism of the gaps.  Whatever looks a little similar or somehow supposedly fits a sequence, generally of smaller to bigger, aquatic to semi-aquatic to land and so on, will all support the evolutionist&#039;s typical urge to merge.  It&#039;s not that they just arranged the environment in a sequence. No, the organisms must all be ancestral because of that arrangement and perhaps some just so narratives are thrown in or, &quot;Hey, this has legs.  And would you look at that, that has legs too!&quot;  

It&#039;s not that &lt;i&gt;they&lt;/i&gt; arranged things smaller to bigger.  No, it is because the little things are ancestral to the bigger things.  Or morphology, &quot;Hey, you know, this looks a little like that!  This leg, it looks like the one on the other side too.  Hey, that must mean that the left leg is ancestral to the right leg!&quot;  

You can have fun with people who make the overbroad claim that &quot;no&quot; transitional fossils exist.  What they&#039;re really referring to is what type of narrative about origins is warranted based on the evidence.

And the simple fact is, people don&#039;t care about the silly jargon and cherry picked examples based on micropaleontology and millions of fossils.  

With that many things in transit it is easier to arrange a transition and begin to say, &quot;Hey, &lt;b&gt;all&lt;/b&gt; things share the same ancestor!&quot;

Most micropaleontologists will have the urge to merge, so they will not tend to say anything until they feel safe enough to begin to argue among themselves.  That is typical for evolutionists.  

But anyway, the general pattern of Nature is typological, not sequential. This is what is observed empirically, again and againâ€¦and then, again and again.  Some people willfully choose do fit the empirical to their type of psychology.  Their type of psychology is quite clear, using esoteric jargon and dealing in foraminifera does not change that.

Most people are not interested in dealing with it.  You should not assume that means anything other than that they are not interested in all the jargon and such.  That&#039;s why I did not reply until now when I came across an old bookmark.  I&#039;m not that interested in it either. 

You&#039;re making up the terms of what is &quot;transitional.&quot;  And you don&#039;t seem to understand that those who say there are &quot;no&quot; transitionals are also making up their terms.

It&#039;s something that humans do, to name and classify.      </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darwin did say that there would have to be an infinitude of intermediaries, then he tries to make excuses as to why they were not found:<br />
&#8220;On this doctrine of the extermination of an infinitude of connecting links, between the living and extinct inhabitants of the world, and at each successive period between the extinct and still older species, why is not every geological formation charged with such links? Why does not every collection of fossil remains afford plain evidence of the gradation and mutation of the forms of life? Although geological research has undoubtedly revealed the former existence of many links, bringing numerous forms of life much closer together, it does not yield the infinitely many fine gradations between past and present species required on the theory, and this is the most obvious of the many objections which may be urged against it. Why, again, do whole groups of allied species appear, though this appearance is often false, to have come in suddenly on the successive geological stages?</p>
<p>I can answer these questions and objections only on the supposition that the geological record is&#8230;imperfect&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>There is the Darwinism of the gaps.  Whatever looks a little similar or somehow supposedly fits a sequence, generally of smaller to bigger, aquatic to semi-aquatic to land and so on, will all support the evolutionist&#8217;s typical urge to merge.  It&#8217;s not that they just arranged the environment in a sequence. No, the organisms must all be ancestral because of that arrangement and perhaps some just so narratives are thrown in or, &#8220;Hey, this has legs.  And would you look at that, that has legs too!&#8221;  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s not that <i>they</i> arranged things smaller to bigger.  No, it is because the little things are ancestral to the bigger things.  Or morphology, &#8220;Hey, you know, this looks a little like that!  This leg, it looks like the one on the other side too.  Hey, that must mean that the left leg is ancestral to the right leg!&#8221;  </p>
<p>You can have fun with people who make the overbroad claim that &#8220;no&#8221; transitional fossils exist.  What they&#8217;re really referring to is what type of narrative about origins is warranted based on the evidence.</p>
<p>And the simple fact is, people don&#8217;t care about the silly jargon and cherry picked examples based on micropaleontology and millions of fossils.  </p>
<p>With that many things in transit it is easier to arrange a transition and begin to say, &#8220;Hey, <b>all</b> things share the same ancestor!&#8221;</p>
<p>Most micropaleontologists will have the urge to merge, so they will not tend to say anything until they feel safe enough to begin to argue among themselves.  That is typical for evolutionists.  </p>
<p>But anyway, the general pattern of Nature is typological, not sequential. This is what is observed empirically, again and againâ€¦and then, again and again.  Some people willfully choose do fit the empirical to their type of psychology.  Their type of psychology is quite clear, using esoteric jargon and dealing in foraminifera does not change that.</p>
<p>Most people are not interested in dealing with it.  You should not assume that means anything other than that they are not interested in all the jargon and such.  That&#8217;s why I did not reply until now when I came across an old bookmark.  I&#8217;m not that interested in it either. </p>
<p>You&#8217;re making up the terms of what is &#8220;transitional.&#8221;  And you don&#8217;t seem to understand that those who say there are &#8220;no&#8221; transitionals are also making up their terms.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s something that humans do, to name and classify.</p>
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